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Post by sRagnar on May 7, 2009 17:52:00 GMT -5
well at least they are fixing their website as we complain and bring this stuff to light. it does not help us that have already made our buying decisions based on the original info on the website. here is a new update to the draganfly web site. Operating Requirements
* Recommended Pre-Use Temperature: 10° to 35°C (50° to 95°F) * Maximum Environmental Operating Temperature: -25° to 38°C (-13° to 100°F) * Relative Humidity: 0% to 90% Noncondensing * Maximum Windspeed: 30km/h (18mph) * Maximum Windspeed Recommended for Novice Pilots: 16km/h (10mph) * Maximum Windspeed for Optimal Video Recording using GPS Position Hold: 10km/h (6 mph) so i guess they did some further testing or are using our testing for guidelines as we move forward.
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Post by helicrazi on May 7, 2009 18:02:51 GMT -5
Wow !!! I still would dispute maximum wind speed (18mph), there's no way !!!!! it should say 10mph !!!! also Maximum wind speed for novice (10mph). no way !!!! it should say 4mph They got it right at 6 mph for GPS hold !!!!
Sure glad we have copy's of there original web pages !!! and we have our manual's !!!! I wonder if this is all they plan to do ? we have had over 100 views to the post about the X6 discussion board since 10:00am PST. one reply from the Netherlands !!!! the word is traveling !!! and fast !!!!
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Post by skyshark on May 7, 2009 19:26:21 GMT -5
I would like to thank the owners of the X6 for providing their experience with owning/flying their aircraft. I was working alot of overtime to purchase this. Now I've put everything on hold and I'm considering purchasing the Microdrones MD4-200. I know both aircraft are light and are affected by wind conditions. It just seems to me that the Microdrones aircraft is more stable and capable when it comes to video and control range, GPS quality, and flight time (14mins with camera payload 20 mins without). I am impressed with the technology employed by the X6 (especially the custom controller). I am also impressed with the costs WHEN compared to the Microdrones MD4-200. It's just that I don't want to spend so much money on a product that has so many issues. I do hope that Draganfly resolves these issues soon.
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Post by skyshark on May 7, 2009 19:28:44 GMT -5
Ref the windspeed. Does anyone think that if the X6's angular flight limits were increased that it would allow for better flights in windy conditions? Maybe a software change would help the craft's wind performance. (I know it's more complex than that). Any opinions??
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Post by helicrazi on May 7, 2009 20:42:37 GMT -5
Skyshark, bottom line is it needs to be larger, everything scaled up proportionately. I performs great up to a 6mph wind, it will fly above 6mph, at 10mph it takes so much impute just to hold it in place that anything higher you risk crashing. so the X6 definitely has a place, inside it's incredible and in 0-6mph steady wind, steady being the key word here. don't forget about the other issues, Range !!! if you lose video transmission you can't tell whet your taking pictures or video of. and if you lose control ? well whats the worst that could happen ? lawsuit !!!! I have spent countless hours testing wind and the X6, bought special equipment and even sent in video of the X6 in flight. Draganyfly has not commented on the video, nor have they answered my questions of with what and how are they collecting wind data. I sure would like to have a company with a wind tunnel help me test the X6 and have some indisputable data. The video range and control range should be easy to test, just take a hike, pace it off. Hmm maybe we should contact myth busters they some how always get the data.
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Post by helicrazi on May 7, 2009 20:58:23 GMT -5
Check this out, The San Diego Air & Space Technology Center www.lswt.com/testing.php I'll contact them and see if they'd be interested in helping me test the X6 Email sent
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Post by garymortimer on May 8, 2009 3:59:50 GMT -5
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Post by helicrazi on May 8, 2009 22:31:13 GMT -5
Cory at Draganfly responded !!!! On the bottom of the email it state's: This email including attachments is confidential and legally privileged. Any redistribution, copying or posting of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately, by return email, and delete this email. So I guess I can summarize ? First I was thanked for the input and feedback, and was difficult to know exactly where they need to improve. Then states from customer feedback they realize the flyable wind speed needs to be more clearly explained and is still defending the maximum of 18MPH !!!! Again I say know way !!! I will want them to prove it, they still have never told me with what and how the derived at this. He dose admit that there slow in returning emails and phone calls, and takes time to go over data and come up with solutions. and that there working ideas for extended hours and more staff, an incident form, so they can more efficiently handle technical problems. Than he asks me to better explain my range issues ? I said others are having range issues !!! I don't think he really reads the emails, he's done this to me before. He once again thanks me for communicating my concerns, and Say's it was a real "eye-opener" the talks about mt GPS problem and the return number. well if he would read this discussion board he'd know it was resolved with the hard iron calibration. Anyway I am going to email him as to what I've done to fix the GPS and also the wind speed issue. I would suggest that each and everyone that feels the same to the wind speed problem do the same, I have collected data, had another more experience pilot fly the X6 I know that the X6 will not handle the wind speeds that they claim, and so dose everyone else that has worked with me to try and determine this. I would also recommend emails sent about their range issues and video issues. we are going to have to be persistent thats evident.
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Post by helicrazi on May 8, 2009 22:39:42 GMT -5
Wow there has been almost 250 views on the three other forum site's !!!!
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Post by skyshark on May 9, 2009 2:14:55 GMT -5
Garymortimer, I contacted F.A.A. HQ in DC about UAS (Unmanned Aerial Systems) commercial operations. An advisory/regulation will be passed/approved in late 2010 early 2011 that will allow for commercial flights of UAS weighing less than 55 pounds, flown in class G airspace, away from airports, below 400 feet, and within sight of the pilot/controller. Commercial is deemed for hire and as such must meet strick F.A.A. requirements for airworthiness. The F.A.A. considers ANY aircraft that utilizes sensors/autopilot etc to be a UAS even if the craft is only 6 inches in length. I've read through X6's web site many times. I think they mention the X6's use for realtors, photographers. They may use their pictures for their business. I think it becomes a different story when they offer their service for hire. Like someone paying you to take a photo of their property. Either way...the regulations will allow for commercial flight soon...provided that there are no news breaking incidents involving these aircraft. I can provide more detailed info if you like.
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Post by skyshark on May 9, 2009 15:53:42 GMT -5
Helicrazi, I've watched X6's videos several times to see how it performs. The company did film the X6 flying on windy days. Just how windy I'm not sure. There are a few videos that show that the only way to keep the X6 in place was by using the full limit of the right control stick. Watch the controls and the aircraft's response on "trying to crash the X6" www.draganfly.com/uav-helicopter/draganflyer-x6/gallery/videos/video-18.php You'll see how much stick he has to use to keep the X6 in place during the hover part. I believe the the female news caster ran into wind problems during their shoot of the aircraft flying. If you watch closely you'll see that she is using the extreme limit of the right control stick. The aircraft drifts away because of the wind. Once again...I don't know how windy it was during both shoots. Now the Hawk video looks as if it was windy that day. When the X6 takes off from the rock you'll see that it is canted into the wind a little. There was also a little drift. Do you think the design of the craft (three arms vs four) limits it's flight performance? I don't own the machine but I'm starting to think that if the wind was coming from the west that you would have to orient the aircraft with one of the three arms facing the direction of the wind so that the other two arms could provide enough resistance to keep the craft in place. (although that may not be the photo angle that you want to shoot from). Plus.... videos can be edited. It may have taken several attempts during the Hawk video shoot to get the craft in place for the picture/video. All in all....I do think that the X6 is looking more of a calm to low wind aircraft. I see why you would be miffed (lite version of word) if Draganfly advertised it's ability to fly in higher winds than it was actually capable of. I contacted someone a Microdrones about their MD4-200. The seller also mentioned that their aircraft performs wonderfully in calm winds and indoors. He stated that windy conditions made it harder to fly too. So I think the solution is a larger designed aircraft. Aside for the advertising issue for wind handling. I guess my big concern would be the control and video range. I would not want an aircraft like that to briefly lose control like mentioned earlier in these posts. Plus video range would also be an issue too. I could live with the wind issue when advertised correctly.
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Post by helicrazi on May 10, 2009 15:27:09 GMT -5
Hi skyshark, I did review the video and I see what your talking about. like you said we have no idea what wind they were shot at. this has been a problem that I have been dealing with they tell you what wind speeds it will handle, but no prof nothing to back up their statements. IMO I don't think it's the design of the X6, I feel it's more to do with size. the reason I say this is I fly RC helicopters and mine range from 18" rotor span to 72" and many in between. 17 RC helicopters in all. I can't fly the 18" rotor span heli in the winds that the 72" can. the 18" heli would be flipped back onto the ground from the wind no matter what. the larger 72" would do fine, but even that heli at some wind speed would do the same. I have never test at what wind speed these heli's are capable of handling, I just use common sense. same with planes, I can't fly a light weight fommy in winds that a 40% will still fly fine. so I really feel more than anything the X6 is just to small to operate at the wind speeds thats advertised. due to the fact that the X6 operates as advertised at wind speeds of 6 MPH. as you say the control and video range are another concern.
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Post by garymortimer on May 11, 2009 2:22:35 GMT -5
I dont share your interpretation of the rules skyshark.
But that aside if things follow normal aviation conventions, the makers of the X6 will need to get it certified, are they thinking about that?
It might need sense and avoid of some sort.
A recovery system in the event of an engine failure.
Protection from fly aways.
Commercial consideration is taken this side to mean valuble gain. So even if you own the company that uses images and are not actually selling them to a third party you are still getting value out of it.
I think thats the way the faa would see it as well.
But until new regs are passed its illegal skyshark??
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Post by helicrazi on May 11, 2009 14:27:25 GMT -5
I sent off an email in reply yesterday 5-10-09, as yet haven't recvied a reply back.
Hi Cory, > Thank You for the quick reply, I feel it is in Draganfly's best interest to > address the concerns of their customer's. > > Cory in my email I stated that; (Some seem to be having range issues, both > control and video. I am still in the testing stages for range.) I will let > you know my findings. There is however one of your customers that is having > issues with range and video. He is very discouraged and frustrated. like me > he feels that Draganfly's customer support is to difficult to deal with and > gave up. Cory I worked hard to get the video you that you requested, it took > a combined effort, and for you or anyone at Draganfly not to even comment on > the video was very disappointing. the whole idea was to capture my X6 in > flight so you could see what was my problem. all I was told by Gram at > Draganfly was we didn't see anything wrong with the log files !!!! and if I > felt there was something wrong with my X6 I need to send it back to be > evaluated, and if found that there was nothing wrong, it would be at my > expense. this was after waiting a week to talk to you and that never > happened. I sent video in on a Monday, waited until Wednesday to call and > email with no reply, and again Thursday. finally Friday Gram answered the > phone, said you were out training someone and I should call back after 3:00, > I did and thats when I was told nothing wrong with the log files and was > issued a RMA number. needless to say I wasn't very happy. > > My GPS problem seems to have been cured by performing the hard iron > calibration. I have only been able to fly the X6 once since I performed the > calibration and it seemed be acceptable. This was with a steady ground wind > speed of 6MPH, 30' out and 30' up. I did notice that it held better with the > nose into the wind ? > In our previous correspondence I was asked to check the hard iron and the > numbers were within spec's so I never did the calibration. after meeting > with another owner of a X6 and comparing the two side by side, his held > allot better in GPS hold, we decided to do the hard iron calibration and > then mine performed the same as theirs. In manual mode they both handled > the same. so at this point I feel that my X6 is as good as it can be. > > Cory > Now the biggest and most important issue for me and the other three X6 > owners I have talked to, wind speed. they have not done the intensive > testing that I have done, but are not happy at all with the X6 and that you > can only use the X6 in very low wind speeds. and not at the wind speeds as > advertised. one owner will only fly if there is no or very little movement > at the top of the tree's in his area. I personally have watched him fly and > he's a very capable pilot. > > Cory I have bought equipment that I can measure wind speeds from ground > level to fifty feet. I have asked you with what and how Draganfly is > measuring wind speed, I never have received a answer !!!! I even sent a link > to what I was using at that time and asked if this would be OK. again no > reply !!! I feel I have gone over and above to try and help figure out if > my X6 has a problem or just will not do what Draganfly states it will do. > the only thing I haven't done and I may still do so is put the X6 in a wind > tunnel so that there will be no question as to the wind speed that the X6 > can handle. > As far as your analogy of a car and 200mph, Cory a vehicle can be > documented and real data collected to determine maximum speed. again where > is the data ? where is the Prof ? all we have is what Draganfly claims, > nothing to back it up. > > Cory I was able to fly yesterday, 5/9/09. wind speed of 4-4.5 MPH. first > attempt it didn't hold well at all, 12 Satellites 2.0 PDOP. I thought I'd do > the hard iron calibration since it made a difference before. the hard iron > numbers did change. Second attempt it held better but still for such low > wind speeds thought it should do better. I thought it might if I had a lower > PDOP so decided to try again later and see if I could get a lower PDOP, well > unfortunately that opportunity never happened due to wind latter in the > day. even though the wind was less than 12Mph I have experienced at that > wind speed all I would be able to do is nose it in to the wind and and keep > it there. The wind speed was measured at the same height as the X6. > We did a test once at 9-10 Mph I had the X6 about 10' in front of me and at > 6' off the ground another pilot standing beside me to tell me where the > sticks were, another person standing about 6-8' to the side of the X6 with a > wind meter and it was all I or anyone could have done to keep the X6 in that > position and the right control stick was between 90 and 100% in the forward > position. this was a steady wind speed at the same height as the X6. that > same day we did another wind speed test and the wind was less at 35' than > ground level. as you can tell I have done intensive wind speed testing and > the X6. > > I have had the assistance of experienced RC pilots help me with the > testing of the X6, one in particular is Jayson Turner with over 20 years in > the industry, has flown for the movie industry and been sponsored by some > name brand companies in the RC industry. he feels as I do that there is no > way that the X6 can fly in the wind speeds claimed by Draganfly. he is > available if Draganfly would like to contact him and discuss this matter. > > Cory I would appreciate if we could discuss this over the phone, I talked > to another X6 owner yesterday 5/9/09 he would also like to be in on the > call, I don't know if thats possible or not ? I can be contacted any day > before 9:00am PST. Tuesday or Friday all day and all day most weekends. > > One other thing is we feel that the owner or owners of Draganfly need to > made aware and we would like some acknowledgment of it.
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Post by helicrazi on May 11, 2009 14:44:45 GMT -5
This is alittle funny, I find myself somewhat defending Draganfly on one of the other forums.
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